S07E08 - 100 years of wireless

We're a man down this week. As Ewan discovers he actually has something better to do than visit the 361 studio he 'calls in' to set the rest of the team a challenge... To coincide with the 100th anniversary of the start of the 1st World War, to look back over the huge changes to wireless communication that coincided with that period and to pick out key points from the following hundred years. It's a tricky one... Ben and Rafe head to the books...

In other news Rafe has a phone that's too orange and Ben's been (liberally) using the unlimited data roaming Three now offer in the USA.

Ben: Hello and welcome to the 361 Degrees Podcast Season 7, episode 8. My name is Ben Smith from Wireless Worker.

Rafe:  I'm Rafe Blandford of the All About sites.

Ewan (by phone): Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't forget about me. This is Ewan from Mobile Industry Review. Right, you can start.

Ben: He's Ewan from Mobile Industry Review. Rafe Blandford, it's just you and me in the room together this week.

Rafe: Yeah, it's very sad. It's actually quite peaceful.

Ben: It is. It's been strangely peaceful getting prepared for this week's episode. Now, we have Mr MacLeod off line down the wire as it were. He can't be here this week. No, he can't be here this week. That's the pause where he would normally interject and say something deeply witty and possibly a bit shouty, but he can't be here this week. We're going to crack on without him but he is fundamental to this week's episode, and has made his usual contribution albeit, somewhat, remotely. We will come back to that.

Before we kick off, Rafe Blandford, do you have any news?

Rafe: I was thinking about this and I thought I'll pick up my phone and see what reaction I got to it.

Ben: Holy something. Rafe Blandford is holding a Nokia Lumia ...

Rafe: 930.

Ben: ... 930. Only the best for Rafe Blandford. I would say, it is somewhere between bright and eyeball-searingly ... It's the colour that people of like those jackets that they're what utility workers wear or people on railways and things that is.

Rafe: This is the bright orange. Very little Lumia 930.

Ben: You don't say?

Rafe: The other version is a lime green one.

Ben: I think bright orange is substantially underselling both the brightness and the orangeness of that case. Fair enough. You've decided to hurt all the people around you with eyeball-melting colours.

Rafe: It has been picking up a few comments. They are but new, just makes me passing, it's got the latest Windows phone 8.1 update 1 update. I know the name of it. It really pains me, but ...

Ben: Right. Is this a good thing?

Rafe: It's a few nice extras in there, but the one that actually caught my attention was a little change they've made to Internet Explorer 11. They're now doing some extra bits on the user agents so that websites think that it's an iPhone or an Android device. They're all going to serve up the right website, and I think it's a pretty good indication of where Microsoft is in mobile that it's having to fake it's user agent in order to get served a proper mobile site.

Now, because the Twitter site for iPhone on Windows, same way as before you got the basic mobile site which was only a bit up on a website.

Ben: There is a whole episode just in that, because that sounds horrendous, because it means that you can't do detection easily, I presume, anymore if you're getting mobile IE users and it's all going to break. Mostly it's not going to work. I'm speaking with my ... Being responsible, the developers hat on.

Since you ask ...

Rafe: Have you got any news Ben, as I'm now used to forget, usually you would be jumping to this, but it just shows how much we're missing.

Ben: I know. I know. There's definitely one leg from this three leg. It's still missing this week. Consequently, rolling our asses. I just came back from America and, that in itself is not specially exciting, although I did have quite a nice time there and I ate a lot of food.

What I did do was, I used three feel at home roaming. I made phone calls and used data like I was at home and for free, which was just the best thing ever. Now, if you don't travel, any talk of, internationally, any talk of roaming probably leaves you cold. Having been stung for horrendous bills in the past, and also just having been a bit unimpressed with the offerings for travel to the US from Europe, because in Europe, we'd be getting some regulation that was bringing prices down. The America was still a very expensive place to go.

I could just pick up my phone, use it and do you know how liberating it was to stand in the middle of Washington, or I was in Wisconsin, or I was in Virginia. Just to use my phone like normal.

Rafe: Yeah, it is fantastic. What you forget when you're in that situation, you tend to use your mobile phone even more than you would at home, because you're in that unfamiliar environment. Certainly, when I was on ... Obviously, this was in Europe recently, it's not quite such a revelation because we had reasonable pricing for a while now. It does actually change what you use the phone for, and it also makes you realize how dependent you are on mobile data to do an awful lot of stuff on your phone.

Ben: Rafe, again, this is the part where I'd normally turn to you and MacLeod, and say, "You MacLeod, what are we talking about this week?" Fortunately, he's had the force to send us something.

Rafe: Excellent. I wonder if he's got any news as well.

Ben: I wonder if he's got any news as well. Over to Ewan MacLeod on the crackly phone line.

Ewan (by phone): Hello there gents, this is Ewan reporting live from the scene in Swindon. I'm afraid I can't be with you today in the studio. It's because, it's my first day at Nationwide Bank. I'm beginning some contracting, but I still intend to being a pain in the back side for you both and I'm going to send you a question. Here it is.

Given actually, the 100th anniversary of the start of World War I, that got me thinking about the technology changes that have occurred in that period. Actually, if you take a step back, it's quite astonishing what we have all achieved, but what for you ... This is the question here. What for you was the turning point or has been a turning point? Any key movements? Was it the moon? Or was it the first mobile phone? What turning points do you think have really supported where we are today in this connected world?

I would like to hear what you have to say. Please can you argue with each other, and Ben if you could say something like "Apologist" or something at Rafe. Rafe, if you could just say, "Well, that's just not acceptable." How about that? Just to make sure we maintain the standard status for 361.

Ben: Okay. It's Ewan's first day at big school today, and he's not allowed out to play because he has to stay late and do his homework. Congratulations to him because that's a big big job at Nationwide. I'm sure he's going to be in and tell us all about it, but he's doing more clever innovation mobile stuff for them.

Yes, Rafe, a hundred years, I think this week as we record the Podcast. Which, given the number of people who listen back to these all of the time, it probably won't mean a great deal, but about a hundred years as we recall this, since the beginning of World War I. It does rather mark a hundred years of wireless and mobile comms, and a colossal amount in total. We're going to talk through that.

Rafe: Excellent. Obviously, World War I, and that anniversary, I think, means a lot to those of us who are particularly in Europe, but it's also is an epochal moment that you can choose ...

Ben: Good worth.

Rafe: You can choose to represent a before and after. I think it's also helpful to think of a reminder where things came from and just as though, a huge changes in society as a result of that conflict, and then subsequently, made World War II. Technology often was put forward by events like that. That's certainly the case if we look at something like radio telephones. The early history maybe start with them.

Ben: That's right, because they were that wireless comms was actually a thing, wasn't it? Well before World War I.

Rafe: Absolutely.

Ben: By that point, Marconi had set up a wireless telegraph systems basically, and this was an idea that had formed for a while now, or for some time at that point. The idea of creating an electromagnetic pulse that you could detect and use for communication, can you?

Rafe: That's right. Actually, it goes back to British imperial history and the idea of laying telegraph lines around the world and the Atlantic cables, but also going off to Africa, India and Australia as well. This sending of telegrams which today, we pretty much have no equivalent to.

Ben: All of those services started off as wired. Actually, quite a lot of that was built out by some of the big names that we recognize today. There's the AT&Ts in the States, and the Bells, and there was Marconi who was in Essex in the UK. I've been doing some reading. I was just amazed how primitive comms was around the time when World War I started.

There was predominantly, the use of comms was actually still wired, and there were incredible stories about various military organizations, literally running telegraph wire through battlefields or through war zones, just so that they could communicate.

Actually, I was looking at some stuff earlier from the Royal Signals, which is a party of the British Army. You read back the history of wireless comms and actually, wireless comms in a lot of case, meant flashing a light at someone. I mean, really primitive. There’s primitive wireless comms that goes back really thousands of years of smoke signals and ...

Rafe: Semaphore.

Ben: ... semaphore, and the other one that was widely used. They have bred carrier pigeons, carrier pigeons as well.

Rafe: In terms of ship to ship stuff, actually, flashing your light was one of the main ways they did that. If we're trying to get it on to topic a little bit here, true wireless comms is, we would think ... Actually, a lot of the impetus for this came from the artillery and being able to direct that accurately, particularly when they were talking to the Royal Flying Corps.

It was people up in airplanes, which of course, again, quite early stages of that technology, and signalling back to the artillery about where they should aim the shells. I have to say, most the time it wasn't very discriminate about where they were shooting. That's actually one of the big pushes for it.

Actually, later on, you started to also get the idea of it with some of the tank regiments because it was mobile units. Prior to that time, there wasn't enough movement to really justify why it needed to be wireless and actually running a wired cable was a lot more reliable. Now, it's partly about the maturity of the technology, but the expense is actually most of the communication was still done by runners or dispatch riders.

What's remarkable about ... Although, this technology had been in place for getting on for 50 plus years, actually it wasn't that widely used as you might imagine it to have been. The field telephone was incredibly important, and that was a wide connection. It's probably one of the under appreciated bits of World War I technology.

Ben: I suppose, one of the things that stood out to me, which I thought was interesting because Ewan was asking about what interested us, and so one of the things that stood out to me was the Marconi systems. Which was one of the ... First of all, it was based on a stolen patent. He stole a patent from Tesla and it took years and years for that to be recognized. It feels like a little bit like we should be apologizing. As Brits, once again, we should be apologizing for that abuse.

The fascinating thing was, that although he did use one of Tesla's patents, Marconi established this huge ship to shore wireless comms business. That was one of the few places that you could have the power and the necessary antenna size, and also the need as well. Ship to shore communications was a huge need.

Actually, I didn't realize that it was a completely closed system. If you wanted to use a Marconi system, you could only broadcast from one Marconi system to another. You needed to be trained by the Marconi Company as a radio operator. It was almost like a completely closed. Even in the earliest days, there was hot debate around whether it should be opened up for a wider use and other people should be allowed to interact with those systems.

Even, this predates World War I, but even around the time of the loss of the Titanic. It was in 1912, I think the Titanic was lost. That ship could broadcast 250 miles or 400 miles on a good day, but you were relying on the fact that any of the other ships who heard your distress calls because you were certainly more than 250 miles away from the coast, and a Marconi trained operator in the room, in the wireless room, and by chance, one of the other ships nearby did.

Rafe: By the same token, the bandwidth on these systems were minuscule because basically, you'd fill it up by broadcasting a message and you'd be reliant on others to pass it on. Compare to what we have now or even later on, it was incredibly primitive system.

Ben: At this stage, we are still talking about Morse Code based systems. The guy operating it, typically young men, were actually trained ... So many words a minute, and the article I was just reading here says that the guy on the Titanic could do 39 words a minute.

Rafe: Which is pretty impressive.

Ben: His nickname was Sparks because of the speed of his finger. Anyway, we move on to World War II, because clearly, during World War I, and around that time, the value of wireless comms just begin to become apparent. Already, ideas about security and interoperability, actually we'd say, had become a big thing.

Rafe, where do we get to about around the time of World War II?

Rafe: In broad, brush terms, it's a big leap forward because of World War II. Actually, it wasn't really before World War II, although there had been an evolution. It was promoted by World War II. It's a lot of conflicts resulted in technological development. The seeds of it were there beforehand, so you can think about things like the cavity magnetron which was what enabled radar to happen in a radio direction finding for both planes and ships. It happened on a scale at which magnetron was going to become useful.

For the UK, that was really important because it resulted in the Chain radio stations which detected the incoming bombers, but also it was used in the navy and in bombing with that direction part. That, I think, coupled together with the wider use of radio for transmission was obviously, would be new boats and army units disposed throughout the conflict zone, resulted in intercepts and in cryptography.

You can't really talk about that without mentioning Enigma and the very things that happened at Bletchley Park. That's a really big topic, but I think the important, in term for this discussion is that there had been this widespread use of wireless communication. Partly, because the conflict zone was that much big and partly because speed became far more important in terms of being able to direct and control your resources across a very wide conflict area.

Ben: Even from the earliest days of wireless comms, security and the integrity of the message was really vulnerable because you could ... Your messages could easily be intercepted and because there was no cryptography actually, in the radio layer, it requires people to use codes as they would have done in written or other forms of comms. This reference after reference after reference and all the written material about how tough it was to get people to do that.

Even if you had a link and you had an established code, the people would forget or neglect to use it and you could quickly give away useful intelligence. There's huge, there's cases across the UK early on in the inter war and the early second World War periods where even amateurs now had built simple receiving sets which were able to intercept military communications.

Again, typically naval communications. These were very quickly passed on to this fledgling Signals Intelligence as it's called which was the interception and decoding of messages particularly in the UK. It's funny that, even about a hundred years ago, we're just talking about the same ideas that then, as we are now, in terms of the Snowden files, because it quickly became apparent to all the important powers.

Actually, access to the access to that basic layer, the wire for the international telegraphs or to a receiving stations to intercept all the wireless signals, really had a massive intelligence benefit really quickly. That quickly came to play and a huge amount was invested in decoding those messages as they became encrypted.

Rafe: Talking about the issues that still resonate today. If you look at the decryption, a lot of the reason that Bletchley Park was able to do, that they were able to establish cribs based on bits of repeating data. For example, it was with the way the book, looking at the identity of particular weather stations. The details certainly matter, but it's actually the same as the social engineering we have today about having good password security.

These are the best practices when you're trying to encrypt something. They had the same problem with training operators to actually do the right thing and not be lazy. Of course, they have the equipment writing down your password in a list with the code books that were used to put the right settings on the Enigma machine. Whatever, how can you make it clear, it was on all sides. Those issues that we still have coming down stay-

Ben: Jump forward a bit then, and really, I suppose, this is the first opportunity to start talking about some non-military uses of wireless comms. By 1930's, uses of the short range radio comms was quite routine by police forces and law enforcement organizations. We were still working on basically transmission of voice over a standard analogue radio wave, and that really persisted for quite some time.

Rafe: It did indeed. When we talk about analogue system, we're really starting to talk about the forerunners to 1G which is like the first cellular networks. Before we had that, we actually had various systems in the States and elsewhere that were basically commercially available, radio, telephone systems. For example, the mobile telephone service which was a VHF radio system in the States. Something that was originated by Bell Systems after the Bell Labs had first used in St. Louis in 1946. That was an output from World War II.

I think there was quite a bit of that, but probably the one we really have to identify that's been critical for us, Ewan asked us about, what were the key moments. We could talk about the early days of computing and how that's, the forerunner, went to do our smartphones. We're talking about the data which I think, that wireless communication is the vital pillar.

You mentioned when talking about roaming at the beginning of this Podcast, we have to look to the establishment of the cellular networks and Motorola 1973.

Ben: That's the fascinating thing is that, this is when the commercial need begins to actually add capacity as one of the major factors. People has ... Just going back with that St. Louis thing, I was reading that article, and I was amazed. The capacity of that system was, as I understand it, three simultaneous calls in the same city. Which is mind-bending not to say, "Oh, yes, you've got a mobile telephony service. Either way, London, have a many, millions of bits, seven million people in London, only three of you can make a call at the same time."

Yet, that worked because obviously, there wasn't a high demand. There was very very high pricing for that kind of telephony. Actually, it became very important to add capacity. Initially, analogue systems enabled that, but actually then, it was really the move to cell-based systems that actually really added that in the first instance, wasn't it?

Rafe: That's right. The cell systems were really about capacity as much as anything else. The actual technology was very similar and actually, as you said earlier, these radio analogy systems, very easy to intercept and it was the Nordic Mobile Telephone service over in Scandinavia which was using a similar technology.

Actually, you could pick up a scan and basically just listen in on calls because they weren't encrypted. Various work around were introduced, and actually Alan Turing had been working on scrambled telephone systems significantly, mainly over wide systems, but the same principles could be used, but they weren't.

If you can remember back in this, this is in the 1980's with yuppies with their car telephones and mobile phones ...

Ben: Just for anyone who's not in the UK who might not be familiar with the term "Yuppie."

Rafe: Thank you Ben.

Ben: Go on. What is a yuppie? It was an acronym and I'm desperately trying ... Young, Upwardly ...

Rafe: Unpleasant or something. I can't remember, but it's someone who basically shouts into a mobile telephone annoying everyone in sight. Some things don't change really.

Ben: Young, Urban Professional or Young Upwardly Mobile Professional. I remember it being much meaner than that. It was quite an unpleasant term, plus the yuppies were obnoxious people.

Rafe: They were. It was the people who annoyed everybody by, I'd say, shouting into their phone. Before we guys get bogged down in the history, perhaps it's helpful to then move on to technology we can probably just about remember from our own lifetimes.

Ben: It feels like from that cellular-based system, and beginning to add capacity, you almost have to now fast forward into late 70's or the early 80's. Really, don't you? To start to see all that's in commercial deployments of that to become more regular, but then after that, what was the next major leap in your view Rafe?

Rafe: I think you have to look at it totally, which is the move from the analogue to the digital system.

Ben: How many years have we skipped now then?

Rafe: What we're talking about, really the early 1990's.

Ben: We've literally blown to the 30 or 40 years.

Rafe: Just like that, yeah. This is interesting because actually, this is the introduction of GSM and you get the first network. It's Radiolinja in Finland in 1991, but also you are seeing competing standards. The CDMA standard was prevalent in the States. These weren't interoperable and if you remember back, you have basically two variants and enough models of mobile phone. One that would work in Europe and the States, and obviously, you're also getting issues around bands and frequencies.

Now, you did have these before, but they were these systems where, just like the early Marconi systems, weren't really interoperable, but GSM did introduce the idea of interoperability, and you'd be able to have a pan-European service. That was quite a few years away, still before you roaming agreements got setup.

It's amazing from that date, just how quickly things start happening. If we say, go to 1993, we have the IBM Simon, which has then we acknowledge to be the world's first smartphone. It wasn't really referred to as such. Then, in 96, you have Nokia releasing the Nokia 9000. Which, at the time, became their best-selling phone, which it tells you something about just how many phones were being sold. This was one with the computer style phone combining a PDA from HP with a phone from Nokia.

It's only when you get to 2000, and it's really quite recently that you get the Ericsson R380, which was the first Symbian smartphone.

Ben: I knew it!

Rafe: You would best get Symbian and honestly, Symbian, until the last year of the decade, 2010, was the dominant smartphone platform in selling 500 million units. Back then, we're talking the first nice market, talking devices like the 7650, the 3650 and then, you have from Sony Ericsson, we had the P800, and those devices.

I just want to step back a little bit and say, with 2G, you also got arrays of text messaging. You always think of text messaging now as something that's going the way of the Dodo. It's being replaced by the over-the-top services like What Sapp, and it's pretty amazing to think the first machine generated text message was sent in the UK at the end of 1992. It was only in 1993 that the first person to person text message was sent in Finland.

We're talking okay, in 21 years or so, but the text message has had a ... If you think about innovations in history, 21 years is nothing. I mean, we've let through 80 plus years and we're just arriving at the things that we feel familiar with, and it's to say, not quite obsolete yet, but certainly you can see text messages being subsumed by other types of messaging.

Ben: That's right. Here we go. In 72, we were still on analogue radio systems that links to fixed networks and you needed to know where the person you'd be talking to, was, so that you could direct your transmissions to them. By 1982, that as you said, the GSM standard starts to be defined. I don't think it's actually in use at that point. And 1983, the AMPS mobile analogue, mobile system is in use.

In that ten years, I think is the transition into more personal mobile telephony as we are in, or wireless comms as we understand it today. I was just amazed as well that something we hadn't touched on particularly, was this point around machine to machine as well, because we're still talking at this stage around primarily, person to person and calls. Although, obviously, the Telex machine during all of that time, was an automated Morse Code operator. That’s a very ... Or anyone who knows what they're talking about will probably be shouting at me now.

Essentially, it allowed you to transmit a page of text, and receive a page of text. The machine really only made it more efficient for people. Then 1982, you're looking at these standards, and by 1988, Qualcomm were doing some stuff around machine to machine as well.

It's still very early days, but we begin to see the consideration of the use of data traffic as well, both for people and machines. I was amazed actually, because when I was looking through, I was thinking, "How could do I find BlackBerry. I'm going to find BlackBerry. I'm going to find BlackBerry." It wasn't till the early 90's that BlackBerry shows up on the scene with, not even phones, they're just pagers aren't they basically?

Rafe: That's right. BlackBerry technology is very young, and again, we see it disappearing. It really just says that ...

Ben: Sorry, I'm going to correct myself. Not in the early 90's. The late 90's. My mistake.

Rafe: Late 90's, we're talking a time scheme of 10, 12 years at its peak. Suddenly, if you would think about internet or mobile phones, we'd take for granted now, the first four internet service on a mobile phone wasn't introduced until 1999. That was DoCoMo in Japan.

Now, there are some antecedents to that with things like Wap, but the idea that internet on smartphones is 15 years old, is really ... That really surprised me. I was around and just remembered that happening in the news. Of course, a lot of this is really really recent. The same goes, when we're still talking about practical mobile data, maybe. We have to talk about 3G and that's 2001 in Japan and the European launches coming just a little bit after that.

Actually, it's quite interesting. You can observe these ten year jumps. In 1990, we're talking about the introduction of 2G. In 2000, we start talking about the introduction of 3G. By the time you get to 2010, we're starting to talk about 4G. That such had been a pattern for the last 20 or 30 years or so.

When we're talking about big developments, going back to Ewan's original question. What were the defining moments. I would identify the emergence of digital cellular, as being really really important. The things that developed off the back of that. Now, recognize building what we have in the mobile networks today ...

Ben: Now, Mr MacLeod has helpfully provided us with a few sound bytes. Let me just ...

Ewan (by phone): Rafe, yes again. What are you saying?

Ben: Just out of fairness.

Ewan (by phone): Oh, come on.

Ben: There we go. He didn't actually send it in for deliberately picking on me. We're running out of time and we have just escalated through a hundred years of history, and we've missed out tons and there's loads of stuff I'd love to talk about more. Just so many amazing dates and incredible to see how things have picked up really since the 1980's and the last 30 years, and the ever-increasing pace.

We have to pick ... We talked about a couple of really important turning points, but what would be, if you had to pick out one, Rafe, what would it be?

Rafe: If I had to pick out one. I would identify the introduction of cellular telephony with Motorola in 1973.

Ben: Go on, why?

Rafe: Because, I think, if you look at the architecture of that, you can see before and everything we expect from a mobile network today. Before that, the analogy systems were set up for kind of one to one without the capacity. It's tempting to talk about the introduction of 2G and digital and all of those things.

Ben: You're not going to say, it's actually the iPhone?

Rafe: Picking out one thing, if you talk about wireless communications, for me, that is the turning point.

Ben: I know, the announcement of the original, of Windows 5 which you were really wanting to ...

Rafe: Very exciting, yeah. Of course, the formation of Symbian when Psion disappeared. I think this is here, but ... I'm going to try and turn it around and have you not mock me. Which is probably a dubious effort. For you, what is the key date for you?

Ben: Ewan, in his setup, mentioned going to the moon, and reading about the text that they used, it was incredibly impressive that the wireless comms were used in the first moon landings and things. Actually, by that point, I think we already talked about the concept and that method of operation of using voice over and analogue transmitter actually was pretty well-established by that point.

The one thing that really impressed me, about thinking about communications involving the moon, was an ... This is a deliberately British pride saying, was the use of the moon as a satellite, bouncing signals off the moon and this was actually used by the American military from about 1946. By the mid-50's amateurs had the equipment where they could hear transmissions.

It was this idea that you could use a wireless signal bounced off some third party to reach another part of the world, which then of course, now, we have satellite comms. It only reach- it's only a really a small part now of our every day your or my wireless interactions. Actually, satellite comms enables a huge amount of wireless comms around the world.

The one thing I love about this story, is that yeah, the US and the US military actually made it happen, but the original paper, the original idea was floated by a guy in the British Post Office in the 1940's who wrote a paper about bouncing wireless signals off the moon.

It was the post office that got it right, and yet, they still have to resort to selling our stamps nowadays.

As ever, thank you very much for listening. We've missed Ewan MacLeod but don't tell him. He won't be listening to this, so he won't know. There's so much we've missed out, so let us know what you think of the turning points in history were. We focused on the military and that really has driven, because that's driven so much of history, but actually, there's a ton of interesting civilian stuff as well.

Again, we tend to be perhaps a bit US and UK-centric  because that's where some of the early pioneers were and that's certainly where a lot of the military mainly was, but no doubt that there was a huge amount of innovation in other countries as well. Not at least in terms of those first international comms that were set up. Power transmissions all around the world.

Let us know what you think, your ideas. What have we got historically wrong. I know there's going to be some people out there going, "No. You've got that wrong." Let us know in the comments. As ever, there will be a little survey up with this post, so go to 361podcast.com and let us know what you think.

If you'd like to reach us, you can get us on Twitter @361podcast, or you can email us through a link on the website, through the contact. Well Rafe Blandford, thank you very much.

Rafe: Thank you Ben and we'll Ewan back for the next Podcast and I'm sure he'll be making his usual valuable contribution.

Ben: Hold your horses.

Ewan (by phone): Wait, can I just say, thank you very much to everyone for listening. We love you all.

Ben: There you go. Thank you very much from all of us in the studio. Thank you for Ewan wherever he is and we'll be back next week.

Rafe: Bye-bye